Alan Gribble Edit
Why was Alan Gribble helping to fix M2 before the fight with Pussycat as he wasn't part of the team? And if he did help why was he in the pits area rather than in the audience or something?
188.8.131.52 15:09, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
- Gribble was still a very major contributer, and he only resigned to become a Robot Wars Crew Member. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 21:48, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Kinematic Events Edit
The placement of "team"Edit
Can someone please tell me when and why this page changed from Team Cold Fusion to Cold Fusion Team? Aside from sounding ridiculous, it contradicts the Style Guide and literally every other team on this Wiki. If both were used (which they were), shouldn't the consistency take precedent? GutripperSpeak 05:36, September 30, 2016 (UTC)
- I would suggest that names starting with Team are of the robot, e.g. Team Tornado, and that it is standard English to have the word Team after the adjective or proper noun. --Robinherrick (talk) 11:37, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion took place on User talk:Robinherrick, as part of a direct conversation with the team captain of Cold Fusion Team, Robin Herrick, as I'm sure you have noticed is here. In hindsight, David Gribble exclusively used "Cold Fusion Team" on the show too. ToastUltimatum 11:48, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
You guys have no idea how hard it is to find information online about when something is "Team X" vs. "X Team". I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I'm not convinced that this page should remain this way. In advance, I give all respect to you Robin and please understand I'm not trying to say you are wrong about what you call your team, rather, I'm trying to find a consistent approach and the right approach.
I dispute that "X Team" is standard English. I've been Googling examples for a while now and here's the ones I've come up with.
|X Team||Team X|
You'll notice a pattern immediately. The "X Team" tends to be for descriptive words; "the team is blue", "The team is of basketball players", "The team is the best". The "Team X" tends to be for official team names, where the team is a brand that people are meant to recognise. People playing PokemonGo don't go around saying "I'm on the Valor team", they're on "Team Valor". The Valor team implies a team that is known for its valor, rather than a name that crafts a brand for the team.
Apply the two patterns to other Robot Wars teams and you'll see why its an issue. With something as unique as "Cold Fusion" you wouldn't notice, but what about "The Outlaw Team?" That sounds like the team is competing illegally. "The Berserk team" or "The MAD team" makes them sound nuts. "The Mute team" makes them sound like they are a team of mutes, rather than a team of people under the banner of a robot named "Mute".
It shouldn't matter to the team which way around it is, and this is where I note on Robin Herrick's talk page "I'm not sure if there's a standard for these things". To his credit, Toast has not just knee-jerk reacted to the possibility of change, but I believe that he was wrong to say that there was no standard on the Wikia. Even if none has been officially discussed, look at the precedents:
- 63 team pages on the Wiki
- 2 universities
- 1 school
- 3 "group of associates" teams, like the "Crew", "Nuts", "Associates"
- 1 semi-company name "Random Violence Technologies"
- 3 individuals (Clark, Dijkstra, Burrell)
- 1 outlier (Jurassic Park, I'll be getting to that one)
- 1 "X Team"
- 51 "Team X" pages
How is that not a standard? The ones mentioned like "King Buxton team" are no different to mentioning something like "the American team". Saying "the [robot name] team" is just referring to the people around the robot. It isn't talking about the team as an identity. If anyone can come up with uses outside of "Cold Fusion team" that don't refer to the robot's names and the team around them, I'd be very interested, but it won't change my mind.
The reason it won't change my mind is that this is not a discussion about which is better. If Robin and his team want to call it the Cold Fusion team, I'm not going to stop them. This is only a discussion as to "should we have one exception to the standard "Team X" approach for the Wiki"? I don't see any reason why it should. I also don't believe its worth noting that the Team prefers the orientation "X Team" as opposed to "Team X", because its the exact same name, just different order.
There are arguments in my long submission that may contradict, yes. You may point to examples such as the King Buxton team, or argue that "you yourself said it doesn't matter". Most of the above points have simply been to discuss why the "Team X" approach is better. At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is "should there be an exception to the unspoken rule that applies to 51 other pages, just because the relevant roboteer pronounces it one way and one Wiki user thought it should change"?
- Props to you for writing such a long case, but you haven't and won't change my mind. A roboteer's word takes precedence over anything, and it's clear from Robin's words, watching the show (including words of the Gribbles), and the team's website that Cold Fusion Team has always been the standard, and Herrick isn't going to and can't retroactively change the team name just to suit your wishes, therefore, we stick to what's official. The fact that this Cold Fusion Team is the only team name to be formatted this way is pure coincidence and isn't a valid reason to have it changed. You can't just assume King Buxton Team isn't the way the team want to say it, you don't have any evidence to suggest that they were in fact "Team King Buxton". Not to mention the amount of time it would take to switch all the names round all over again. Let's avoid having an argument in front of the team captain's face and just respect the real team name. ToastUltimatum 00:45, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- Well I on the other hand have been convinced, although I was thinking this way a bit to begin with. Robin is the expert on his robot, and we are the experts on the Wiki. We actually don't just take the roboteer's word over anything - see Crash and Robin discussing whether Bodyhammer is one or two robots, the discussion with Simon and Debs over whether Chompalot has a pincer or jaws, Ray Thompson wanting to rewrite Infernal Contraption to add in his own commentating. We have standards on the Wiki and I don't see why we should abandon the standard just because the robot exists. I also don't agree that Gribble used Cold Fusion team exclusively, because last time you made such a firm statement ("8645T was never called Beast unless 8645T was mentioned in the same sentence"), the opposite ended up being true. Robin's comments suggest that he will go along with the standard, and like Gutripper said, you ignored that standard and made the change on your own. There was no discussion on this last time, so I think we need to have one now. I'm going to wait and see the videos for myself on this. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 01:10, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- Toast, no one is suggesting we change the name, just the format. Team goes first, not last. I'm sure Stuart Barnwell wasn't thrilled that his team was a footnote on Team Cold Fusion, but he didn't kick up a stink, did he? If he can swallow that, I'm sure Robin won't mind that the page reads "Team Cold Fusion" instead of "Cold Fusion team". Heck, we can right "the Cold Fusion team" throughout if it'll make life easier for you, but the page should fit the standard template.
- And it's not coincidince, it's because you changed it. GutripperSpeak 01:30, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- Don't act as though our "standard" is set in stone, it's literally been proposed today, and I'm completely against it, so don't use it to try and overthrow my argument. You also can't just assume I'm wrong about Alan Gribble using Cold Fusion Team over Team Cold Fusion just because of one past example in an unrelated discussion, you should know better than anyone not to use something from the past as a modern advantage, TG. I can distinctly remember Gribble saying "We're the Cold Fusion Team" in the Series 5/Extreme era, and you can only call me wrong if you prove the opposite. This entire "standard" is entirely based on your own personal preferences, in order to come up with a formal way of overruling an 18-year old team name, and you're going to need more than just two people before such a biased standard could hope to be put in place. ToastUltimatum 02:29, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- And it's not coincidince, it's because you changed it. GutripperSpeak 01:30, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- I knew I remembered it - Alan Gribble says "Hi we're Team Cold Fusion" at 7:43. But this is my problem, Toast, maybe there was no set standard but then there should have been a discussion. It's clear that people like Gutripper and I are against it, and because the discussion didn't take place on the talk space we didn't get to weigh in or even see the arguments. You just went ahead and changed it. It's not based on my personal preferences, its based on how things were done since 2009. If there was a discussion to be had about this, it could have been had at any point between 2009 and 2016. If anyone has personal preferences imposing them on the Wiki, it's you - I keep spotting "II" in articles when the Style Guide has been set on that issue since we made the Wiki. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 07:30, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- Aside from the fact that "its just been proposed today and I'm against it" is a tad hypocritical in terms of the fact that you were the only person who voted for the move in the first place, you are both missing the point. The team's name is Cold Fusion. The only discussion is "should 'team' come before or after the name"? Whether Alan Gribble called it "team Cold Fusion" or "Cold Fusion team" is completely irrelevant. There is no correct answer because they are both correct.
- The problem is just in terms of the Wiki. Look at when we rank lists like UK Finalists - the teams should all be together under "T", and then in alphabetical order by team name. Cold Fusion ends up lost amongst the Cs because people wouldn't realise original captain calls it "Cold Fusion team" most of the time, or that one admin felt that it should be an its own thing just because of how nearly all the other team pages are set up. And before you say they can just look harder, don't. We shouldn't make things unnecessarily complicated for no legitimate reason. GutripperSpeak 07:51, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just wanting to point out that this discussion, over a year old, ended with a 2-1 favour of consistency and "Team Cold Fusion". Barring any major objections with anything new to add, I'm going to change it back. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 22:18, October 12, 2017 (UTC)
- What, so Herrick's opinion doesn't count because he was on the team? It's the other way around! With both myself and Herrick, at least 50% of the vote says we're going with Cold Fusion Team - you would need one hell of a majority to overrule the opinion of roboteers on what their own team name is and right now you don't have any sort of majority at all. This isn't happening. TOAST 22:55, October 12, 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion isn't about what to call the team. Didn't you read Gutripper's essay? It's about whether we should be having consistency over particular preference of placement. Herrick has indicated a preference for one, Alan Gribble used the other almost exclusively. Those cancel out and it's 2-1. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 22:59, October 12, 2017 (UTC)
- For me, although there is a clear common use of 'Team' as the first word, I don't believe it is necessary to make that an outright restriction either. Consistency is often something we strive for, of course, but in this case, does 'consistency' equate to truly benefiting us if it overrules a specifically stated team name and placement? Yes, it would help cleaning up things that little bit further in certain places on the Wiki, but if it is an official team name, I believe it deserves its own distinction - it is something decided specifically by the team members, after all, and it's their own identity.
- Still, this is something where Herrick himself carries the weight. We can discuss the logistics either way of consistency or a team name being official, but there's no deciding factor either way without final confirmation from Herrick, because it is as opinionated a thing as you can get. If Herrick is able to provide any depth in a potential reply to Toon, that'd be ideal. If it is a team name flexible enough to change and he states that, then yes, we should go ahead and do what helps the Wiki by going back to "Team Cold Fusion". However, if it is an official set-in-stone name - which Herrick seemed to say by changing the team page in the first place - then really, that should respectfully be left as its own individual identity as far as I'm concerned. Nweston8 (talk) 01:50, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
New team member Edit
- To be honest, I don't really know what we can realistically do in this situation, since in theory, team members have only ever been included if they took part in the show itself, or at the very least were Behind-the-Scenes. I'm not 100% sure on the rules regarding adding team members who joined after their last known appearance, so that'll need to be looked into. Rest assured, though, the information you added can stay. CrashBash (talk) 17:33, October 2, 2016 (UTC)
turn back time Edit
- Absolutely. I've had a quick browse, and it looks like another valuable resource for pages related to the team, Bodyhammer and Pussycat. Added it to the main page. VulcansHowl (talk) 18:14, October 2, 2016 (UTC)
Ann Gribble in King of Bots Edit
So a perusal of the King of Bots website lead me to this discovery. The previously unknown female team member of The Grubs is in fact Ann Gribble, making The Grubs a collaboration of three different teams! Toon Ganondorf (t c) 11:39, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
Inkwell in Trivia Edit
Hi - just noticed the trivia point about Inkwell and the David Gribble tribute. as well as that live performance on youtube that is linked, it was actually a track recorded for their 2006 studio album (These Stars Are Monsters), so wasn't just a random live tribute, but a proper studio recorded track by them. so it's even more of an official tribute, that might as well be noted/rephrased in that line. you can listen to it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92U3MJ0Rdbo 184.108.40.206 05:22, January 23, 2018 (UTC) Dan