Talk: Terror Turtle

Did anyone else know that the Steel Sandwich machine was from this team? Toon Ganondorf (t c) 06:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll try again. Does anyone know if the Steel Sandwich is from this team? Toon Ganondorf (t c) 04:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

What makes you believe that they are from the same team? I've never heard it before. Christophee (talk) 22:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Its been so long that I don't recall why I thought this. I'll try and find it again. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 22:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The two are related. The fact they both originate from Canada is a big giveaway. CBFan 22:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and there was a fact on someone's website that told me that they were related. I'll have a look tonight, as my current internet server had blocked a majority of Team websites. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 22:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've just looked at a video with Steel Sandwich and the driver is definitely the captain of the Terror Turtle team. Christophee (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

That battle

OK, so this is a thing that needs to be raised...how do we rank Terror Turtle's World Series tag team battle? Is it a win, a loss or something else entirely? This is evidently something we'll need to discuss as it also affects how Joker and Velocirippa will be edited too. CrashBash (talk) 22:08, January 7, 2018 (UTC)

Loss

• Technically, the fight is a loss. Terror Turtle and Cathadh were both considered immobilised and counted out. Yes, I know the UK team forfeited the points, but that's not the same as forfeiting the win. And even if it was, we've had plenty of examples even on this wikia where such a thing has happened and a robot that has been given the win is still judged to have lost. Also, I would like to point out one thing - not once was it officially stated that Concussion violated the rules. Yes, it was a low-blow, no, I don't blame Fuzzy for getting annoyed, but if it really was a violation of the rules, the judges' would have said something about it. As it was, we saw the ROTW robots get counted out, and then we saw Team UK forfeit the points as compensation for the low-blow (heck, even the dialogue hinted that it was so that the teams would be on even footing). I find it hard to believe it was truly a violation anyway, because where was it in the episode prior? I seem to recall all four robots engaged in battle in the first fight. CrashBash (talk) 22:12, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
• They may have been given the points but they lost the fight big time. This wasn't meant to sound subjective, but both were immobilised and counted out, it was only after the fight that it was considered that they deserved the points, a sort of win by technicality if you will. CaliforniaKingsnake (talk) 22:17, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
• Both ROW robots had been immobilised, it was a UK victory (which I entirely agree with btw- yes, it was a low blow from Concussion, but every TTT tournament before this one it's been pretty much accepted that if your team-mate is dead you have to fight on alone against two machines, tough luck). It was only after the fight that the forfeit happened. Besides, hasn't this effectively happened before, the European Championships of Extreme 2? Razer beat Tornado but later forfeited, the same thing happened here, can't we just use what we did for that? Combatwombat555 (talk) 23:17, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
  • I am tired of the rules in previous Tag Team tournaments being used as an argument. These battles happened with different producers, in a different arena, over a decade prior when the rules were generally less enforced. These were the days when Style was still a category, and battles last five minutes. Treat the reboot rules separately to those of the classic series, as they are separate entities in terms of the way they are officiated. Again I would like to stress the difference between Team Razer forfeiting their own win, and several third parties (Dara Ó Briain, Michael Oates) being brought in to settle a dispute. TOAST, FLIPPER 23:32, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
    • Ok, fair enough, ignore the preboot series- but how about evidence from the first fight? Weber was teamed up on by Big Nipper and Eruption, but there weren't any reprimands for that. We got a half-hearted 'The judges might have something to say about it, it's not in the rules!' from Jonathan Pearce, and then- nothing. There was no official word from the judges that any rules were broken, in either fight. Also- Michael Oates being the team captain of Team UK, forfeiting on behalf of Team UK? He's certainly not a true third party. Can we ask the roboteers on the facebook group what happened, get some clarity? Combatwombat555 (talk) 23:55, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
      • Or, y'know, the first Tag Team Battle in the previous episode where all four robots ended up in the arena and nobody batted an eyelid. As I said, nowhere did it state that Concussion had violated rules. The easiest thing to do in this situation would be to wait for the numerous podcasts to come up. CrashBash (talk) 06:07, January 8, 2018 (UTC)
• The way I see it is somewhat like the Ultor vs Big Brother battle or the Razer vs Tornado Extreme 2 battle. In both cases the robot that won, didn't go through because of disagreements, which is the same here. The robots clearly lost the battle but because of disagreements (disagreeing with the judges) they were given points AFTER they lost. As mentioned before we don't award Big Brother or Tornado those "wins" because they lost, so why should Cathadth and/or Terror Turtle? They didn't win the battle, they won points, but not the battle. One thing to note is Shunt's actions, most of the time House Robots attack the losing team/robot and here was no different it attacked Terror Turtle (before Cathadth was immobile) and Cathadth (as seen in the Haynes manual). As I'll repeat, they LOST the battle but WON the points. Therefore it is technically a loss.Diotoir the son of nemesis (talk) 07:16, January 8, 2018 (UTC)
• The only official result we have is what was said in the episode. Michael Oates was asked "Are you willing to hand over the points" by Dara, and he said "Let's even up the score". So what is happening is that points are swapping hands, but the question was never asked about would you like to take this as a loss. This is the same thing as Razer vs Tornado in Extreme 2. Concussion & Thor and Razer won the battle, but the points/victory was ceded after the fight, in this case, points. We say that Tornado lost that fight and proceeded, so it's fair to say that Cathadh and Terror Turtle lost the fight but ceded the points. They were not disqualified - Razer felt they were immobilised for more than 30 seconds but weren't stopped for it - so this is a case of teams changing the results, not judges. When teams change the result (Ultor, Razer), we keep the original result - ie a loss for TT and Cathadh, and disqualifications the result changes. Although it was a disqualificationable offence, no official disqualification happened. You just have to watch it back and listen carefully. This is a loss with a large Note after it in the records. Jimlaad43(talk) 15:48, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Win

• Let me make something clear: This is not a matter of opinion, and so I don't want to see any opinions declaring which robot you think DESERVES the win (e.g. CaliforniaKingsnake's vote). This has to be handled objectively, based on the televised evidence. With that said, not a single official addressed Thor or Concussion as the winner of the battle on screen. Not the presenters, not the editors, not the Judges, not even Jason Marston or Tim Rackley. An objection was raised before an official winner was declared, and the teams plus Michael Oates agreed to award three points to Team Rest of the World. This was the correct decision, as Concussion violated the rules of the battle, just as Pussycat violated the rules in Series 3, and officially earned a combat loss to Scutter's Revenge through disqualification. Allowing Michael Oates to 'forfeit' the points simply negated the need to bring in an official to declare a ruling. It wasn't an honourable win, but we do what the TV show tells us - as an unofficial website, we cannot award a win to two robots which were never officially declared the winner of the battle. TOAST, FLIPPER 22:19, January 7, 2018 (UTC)

  OK, let me make this clear first of all that this isn't about you voting for the battle being a win. What I'm trying to understand here is your claim that Concussion "violated the rules of the battle, just as Pussycat violated the rules in Series 3". How is that the same as what Pussycat did? Pussycat's violation was addressed by both the judges and TPTB, quite clearly I might add. Not once were either the judges or TPTB shown to mention anything about rule violations - if it was, we would have seen it. By that stance, there was actually no violation at all. Your claim states it's not a win because it wasn't officially declared as a win, but at the same time, it wasn't officially declared to be a violation of the rules, so surely by that same logic it isn't a violation of the rules (especially since the same thing happened in the last episode and nothing came of it). With all due respect, your logic is very confusing. CrashBash (talk) 22:29, January 7, 2018 (UTC)

  When Dara says "Would you like to hand the three points over", that is official confirmation. He's saying, you've earned 3 points for a knockout, would you like to hand them over. Jimlaad43(talk) 15:46, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

• As painful as the proceedings were, I have to agree with Toast on this one. It was abundantly clear that Concussion's attack had been considered illegal, and it was agreed by everyone involved that Team Rest of the World would receive the three points - regardless of how much their robots contributed and what state they were left in by the end of the battle. At no point during that part of the episode were Team UK declared the initial winners before the objection; therefore, we must remain true to the evidence presented from within the episode. That being said, it does seem odd to me that they did not show the Judges' views on Concussion's attack... VulcansHowl 22:36, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
• This is fairly indisputable. Pussycat's disqualification counts as a loss, so should Concussion's and Thor's. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 08:18, January 8, 2018 (UTC)
  • Pussycat's disqualification was done via the judges' directly overturning Scutter's Revenge's immobilisation because of a legitimate rule breakage, and is completely different from this clash which was discussed and resolved purely by the roboteers based on what they felt was right. It is a poor comparison - if anything, it's closer to Big Brother/Ultor or Tornado/Razer (X2). CrashBash (talk) 13:49, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Something else

• See, I'm completely conflicted here. I absolutely want to count this as a win. After all, as far as I'm concerned, Concussion committed an offence, and with the reboot emphasising the want for competition to prevail over entertainment, it's no surprise that this was met with more uproar than it would've been if it happened in the classic series. However, this uproar was only voiced by the competitors themselves. See, in the other Tag Team battle Big Nipper and Eruption were in the arena at the same time and like this fight, that was not punished by the judges - people who are the match officials; the referees if you like. That means although rule breaking 'technically' occurred, the rules are still considered slack enough for no official intervention - i.e. from the judges - to be deemed necessary. It's frustrating, because the Tag Team guidelines for the reboot are clear: one robot from each team is allowed to be active at one time. This should've been followed strictly, but it wasn't, and as a result creates a grey area of the 'rules' actually just being guidelines - and guidelines are something that aren't deemed strict enough for official intervention. That's why I also have no confidence that the outcome of this battle would've been deemed 'illegal' if Team RotW didn't protest. To me, the only reason this result went through is because the competitors and Angela argued vehemently - not because of the judges abiding by the rulebook. That's why I feel uncomfortable setting anything in stone either way in regards to it being a 'win' or a 'loss', because it simply isn't following a rule strict enough either way, as much as I wish it would have. Thor and Concussion technically knocked out the opposition, but it was against the spirit of the competition/guidelines, whereas Terror Turtle and Cathadh were knocked out unfairly in the spirit of the competition/guidelines. The thing is, when 'the spirit of the competition' is a thing instead of actual rules being upheld, it means emotions normally hold the weight, and if you're passionate enough about wrongdoing you can try to reach a conclusion deemed fair. However, Emotions are nothing to do with rules. What we have is that Thor and Concussion were never declared winners by TV broadcast, and although the points were handed over to Team RotW, the judges did not make an official ruling on Team RotW being the winners of the fight either. All we know is that points were exchanged in the aftermath - we technically know nothing about which team won the Tag Team fight itself because although the 'rules' are there, they're only rules as a placeholder. They weren't set in stone, and were only there as a 'spirit of the competition' type thing. Ultimately, it's the shows own fault in this case for not setting something in stone for if this did happen, and as a result, it creates a massive mess - a mess which I'm not willing to go join in as a 'win' or a 'loss'. Nweston8 (talk) 06:08, January 8, 2018 (UTC)
• I'm new to this, so I may need to change some bits to it. The first point I would like to talk about is that whilst Concussion did indeed break a rule, almost the entire World Series teams had broken the rules. In the first episode, there was a 2-on-2 between Apollo, Gabriel, Tomahawk and Cobra, whilst Sabretooth, who has a higher top speed than any of the other robots in the episode, leaves the CPZ before THZ arrives to defeat Rabid. Also Big Nipper and Eruption did intend to "double team" when they brought their opponents to their corner, since there has never been a rule against it. I would also like to add this - what would've happened if Cathadh didn't get flipped over? The second point I would like to bring up is forfeiting (and to a lesser extent is the trials, gauntlet and whiteboard matches). Due to how the wiki picks out selected matches that end with a forfeit with either a win/loss or a no count, it isn't clear as to why a robot that was actual knocked out is being given a win, since it was Cathadh that had the complaint. I believe the most logical choice for this would be to put a win by FF/lose by FF section in. The third, final and most important thing I will be talking about is Big Nipper. During its H2H with Terror Turtle, Matilda hits it and very nearly kills it chances of winning. Now, according to Noel, if TT had moved it would've won. Why? TT didn't defeat Big Nipper, Matilda did. In fact, if TT had won its H2H, don't think Team Titanium would've asked for a recount or something similar to Pulsar-Ironside, due to the fact that BN had just been on top (minor damage to TT, plus the control from the shove) before intervention occurred. --WolfwingandSlaveLeia (talk) 15:19, January 8, 2018 (UTC)
  • Although my personal opinion is still that Cathadh and Terror Turtle won (punishments happen for a reason and are not to be rewarded, and a win through the opponent breaking the rules still count), I will certainly concede that considering the battle a win/loss for NOBODY is a much better compromise than calling it a win for Thor/Concussion. TOAST, FLIPPER 18:15, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Other information

Just for the record, I have decided to do a little digging around and ask some of the roboteers on Twitter. I'll inform you if I hear anything, but either way it could be significant. CrashBash (talk) 15:54, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Facebook comment from Sam Griffin of the Concussion team on the matter. That said, this makes me propose a new policy on gathering information that we are generally unclear of in the Reboot era. Instead of attempting to assume something (based on Wikia consensus, which I should add can change overtime, why not actually ask the roboteers, preferably from both sides, on the issue being discussed? After all, they are generally more reliable sources than we are, usually because they were there when the scenarios happen. SpaceManiac888 (Talk) 17:43, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

That's really what I wanted to do in the first place. CrashBash (talk) 18:06, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Of course, nobody would disagree with that. We still need to give ample time for as many roboteers as possible to weigh in, particularly through podcasts, but we'll get a clearer answer at the end of it. TOAST, FLIPPER 18:12, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

OK, this is a summary of what we have so far.

• As far as votes go, five people are voting to count the battle as a loss, three people as a win and two as a something else.
• Of the something else, Wolfwing has proposed the possibility of not considering the battle a win or loss for either party. Toast has stated his approval of this, and I too think it has merit. Obviously a scenario like this isn't going to come about that often.
• On the side of the roboteers, we have very conflicting opinions on how the battle was handled. Sam Griffin (Concussion) has stated that the battle was a win for Team UK, but Michael agreed to hand over the points (which would be akin to Razer and Tornado's last fight). Conversely, Michael Muldin (Cathadh) has responded to a similar question I posted on Twitter saying, and I quote, "Essentially the UK team was DQ'ed, and Team Rest of the World got 3 points for the match." adding that Dara and Angela "made it happen" (which would be akin to Pussycat vs Scutter's Revenge). So that on its own isn't going to solve matters.
• Stephen McCulla of Push to Exit (aka VoteSaxon07) has shared his own thoughts on the Tag Team battle which you can see here [1]. Curiously, he does not point out anything that suggests that Team UK handed the points over for any reason other than to be fair (so, again, more akin to Extreme 2's Razer vs Tornado). Since he was actually there, you'd think if there were further behind the scenes details, he'd talk about them.
  • Most roboteers had left before the World Series, especially someone Irish like Stephen. I doubt he was present. TOAST, FLIPPER 13:22, January 9, 2018 (UTC)
• NEW: Headbanger142's podcast of the episode complete with Fuzzy himself. [2] This could be the most important thing we've heard yet.
• We still have potential podcasts that might be able to shed light on this situation, though. CrashBash (talk) 21:17, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

If after a while we aren't able to come to a consensus, we should just go with where the point went. Otherwise, keep going until we have an answer. Jimlaad43(talk) 21:54, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Not much focus on the outcome in SamElliott64's podcast (starring Michael Oates), but this snippet implies that Team UK's forfeit was done out of sportsmanship. No mention of disqualifications on Headbanger's podcast, either. VulcansHowl 13:43, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

If that's the case, we can't assume it was a disqualification (ala Pussycat vs Scutter's Revenge), and thus a win by default for Team ROTW. We can either take it as a win for Team UK and then the points were handed over, which would still technically count as a loss for Team ROTW regardless (ala X2 Razer vs Tornado) or we can play it safe and have it so that neither team is judged to have won (ala Pulsar vs Ironside3 part 2) CrashBash (talk) 14:17, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

While no winner was formally announced in the lead-up to Team UK forfeiting the points, I have reservations about considering the battle a draw. Doing so would imply that both teams were considered joint winners, which was not reiterated at all in the broadcast or by the fact that Team Rest of the World became the only team to score points as a result of the forfeit. As such, I would go with the first option if it comes to it; the views we've found so far from the Team UK roboteers suggest that they were the initial, albeit unannounced, victors, who decided to give Team Rest of the World their points out of sportsmanship and with persuasion from the presenters. It certainly doesn't help that the Judges' opinions on that battle were not broadcast at all in the episode - maybe they could shed some light on this on their social media feeds? VulcansHowl 15:06, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

Well, not necessarily. Technically, the second Ironside vs Pulsar battle wasn't declared a draw, it was just stated that no winner was declared. In a sense, the correct statement would be "no result". It wouldn't be correct to state Cathadh/Terror Turtle as winning the battle, because from what seems to be the general consensus they gained the points after the battle based on the decision of the opposing team, which would still not give them a win - the only scenario whereby they would have scored a win (I.E. an official disqualification) seems to have been largely debunked. The closest we've got as to determining an official winner statement is from the Concussion guys saying "yeah, we technically won, we just gave the points over because we felt what happened was unfair" (ala X2 Razer vs Tornado). In a way, I must admit I'm a little disappointed with what we got...I'd hoped the podcasts would have offered more BTS information. CrashBash (talk) 15:27, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

If this is the route, then yes we still would not consider the match a "draw". It would simply be excluded from the tally altogether, with a notice to specify why the battle isn't present, just like we do for excluded Gauntlet runs and Annihilator withdrawals. Velocirippa and Terror Turtle would have to use careful wording to suggest that either one could be perceived as the winner, but it can't be both at the same time. "Won via forfeit" is still accurate in the results tables. As always, I'm still in a position where I'm happy to declare Terror Turtle and Cathadh winners, I am not in a position where I'm happy to call Concussion and Thor winners, and this compromise is overall decent. We may as well wait for the release of Inside the Bot, in case they have a guest star. TOAST, FLIPPER 15:41, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

With all due respect, I still don't get why you're so against claiming that Concussion and Thor won that battle. The whole "they broke rules" thing has sorta been debunked several times over now, because all the tag team fights in the WS (note I'm not mentioning the classic series) ended up with robots "breaking the rules" and nothing came of it. Heck, one of those fights ended in a judges' decision - if the rules truly mattered, surely they would have said something during that decision. CrashBash (talk) 15:55, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

OK, so it's been nearly 48 hours since this whole discussion came up. We've learnt a few details, although I don't think we've learnt as much as we would have liked. However, in summary, based on what our little vote has pulled off, as well as what little information we managed to get from the roboteers, my thoughts on the matter are thus.

• Should Cathadh and Terror Turtle be credited with the win?: No. There's simply no way around it and it seems like the majority of people would agree with me here, Cathadh and Terror Turtle did not win that battle. What happened was simple - both robots were rendered immobilised, both robots were counted out by the judges' and the transfer of points occurred after the battle on a decision by the roboteers, rather than the judges. Effectively, it was akin to Big Brother vs Ultor or the last Tornado vs Razer, where in both cases the former is credited with the loss, but still goes through anyway. That's the way we cover the matter on the wikia and to say Cathadh/Terror Turtle won is a little inconsistent. This could have been subverted if it had been a disqualification ala Pussycat vs Scutter's Revenge, but the evidence we have suggests that this didn't happen, and Team UK just chose to hand the points over after everything was said and done. If this was something that Thor/Concussion could have been disqualified for, then why did the judges' count out Cathadh instead of stopping the fight, and why didn't they get involved? Either way, the ROTW robots should not be credited as getting the win for the same reason Big Brother and Tornado aren't credited as getting the wins in the aforementioned fight.
• Should Thor and Concussion be credited with the win?: Maybe, it's a little hard to tell. The common argument I hear against this is that the teams weren't declared as the winners onscreen, but then you could argue they were the moment the judges' decided to count Cathadh out. Certainly Team Concussion's FB post and the podcasts seem to suggest that Team UK were technically given the win. This is still a grey area - however, I do not feel like we should use "they broke the rules" as a reason for not giving them the win when every Tag Team battle, even in this whole competition, broke the rules (Sabretooth rushing out before Terrorhurtz could tag it, Eruption and Big Nipper double-teaming Weber, the entire free-for-all that wasn't penalised despite going to the judges'). If we are still uncertain, we could simply place "No winner" or "Forfeited" where we'd normally place the "Won" section, but that in itself is a separate debate that I'm sure will be rife for discussion.

Whatever way around it, these are my thoughts based on the information we have and the discussions we've had. Not based on opinions or wants, purely based on the facts. CrashBash (talk) 21:46, January 9, 2018 (UTC)

I think the correct description of the match would be that Thor and Concussion won the match, but they broke the rules (which weren't fully explained), so points went to Cathadh and the Turtle. As the only person on the "something else" team to put down a idea, it should be voted on, or if not, at least beta tested, since Terror Turtle is going to end up with a 1-7 record. Perhaps we could ask a roboteer how they perceived the match. --WolfwingandSlaveLeia (talk) 08:11, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

We have actually tried asking roboteers and listened to podcasts, but they all pretty much say the same thing - the UK team won the battle (as was shown in the TV broadcast), but forfeited the points because they felt what they did was unfair (which was also shown in the TV broadcast). It was decided amongst the roboteers. Also, as I must reiterate, why are we penalising Thor and Concussion for breaking the rules when every Tag Team Terror battle in the competition had the "rules" being "broken"? I think this particular issue has clouded people's minds a bit too much here. As for the wins/losses by forfeit thing, well, that in itself is a discussion that could be worth mentioning, but probably needs its own separate thread. CrashBash (talk) 14:07, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps have Thor and Concussion's result say Won by KO (Forfeit points) whereas Terror Turtle and Cathadh's results are Loss by KO (3 points due to Forfeit) or something similar to that as explanation as to why their H2Hs are counted and not the Tag Team. If their was a fight from the World Series that also ended like this then this conversation would be a lot easier. I also would like to question Stephen's explanation as to why Concussion came out - if what he was true (Thor was changing over) then it would give the "loss" group a legitimate reason as to why TT should have a seventh loss. If however Concussion came out much akin to the original series, then we should consult a member of Robo Challenge or a one of the judges to explain the rules, since the "one robot out at any time" doesn't work if you have minibots (something TT had, at least briefly) or clusterbots. --WolfwingandSlaveLeia (talk) 16:12, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

It could be worth testing out. Since nobody else seems to be protesting, I'll add that the next time I edit the page, albeit I'll still wait a day or two just in case someone comes up. CrashBash (talk) 17:12, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

We wait for Inside the Bot, then if nothing changes, all four competitors gain neither a win nor a loss, the results table says "Won/lost via forfeit (3/0 points), while the tally includes a note reading "X's Tag Team battle with X and X has been excluded from the wins/losses tally due to a post-match forfeit affecting the natural outcome", or something similar. The votes above are split in all kinds of directions and this is the safest way to bring them all together. Likewise, Velocirippa and Terror Turtle are both listed as potential holders of the losses record, dependent on the reader's opinion. TOAST, FLIPPER 17:38, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

First of all, Inside the Bot hasn't updated in ages, so we could be waiting for goodness knows how long. Second of all, why? This is exactly the same as with Ultor vs Big Brother in Series 3 and Razer vs Tornado in Extreme 2. We need to be consistent across the wikia. Ultor won the battle but forfeited the place. Razer won the battle but forfeited the place. Thor and Concussion won the battle but forfeited the points in this case, but it's the same difference. So either we do with this fight what we did for the other two, or the other two get changed as well, but we can't have two different set-ups for the exact same scenario. CrashBash (talk) 17:51, January 10, 2018 (UTC)

OK, let me clarify something here. If you guys want it so that Terror Turtle and Cathadh won a battle by forfeit, do you also agree that Big Brother and Tornado won their battles by forfeit, and that Ultor and Razer "lost" those battles also through forfeit? CrashBash (talk) 09:20, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

They're not really the same. I still think the context behind the forfeit makes it closer to Pussycat and Scutter's Revenge. However, I have been more convinced than Toast and I'm fine calling it a win for Concussion and Thor with a note explaining what happened. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 09:23, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

Pussycat vs Scutter's Revenge was an act by the judges', though, rather than a team agreement like Ultor vs Big Brother. You could argue that Thor and Concussion broke rules, but technically Razer broke the holding rule with Tornado. But I'll tell you what...if we were to say that Thor and Concussion got the win with a note explaining what happened, as you proposed, but left Cathadh and Terror Turtle's pages as they are (win by forfeit included), would you consider that acceptable? Any further information can be added and/or changed accordingly CrashBash (talk) 09:29, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

I said closer, not the same. If I have to pick one that its closer to, I'd pick the one decided by rule contravention rather than the team deciding not to proceed. I'm also against both time having "win" next to their names, so if we have to count Thor/Concussion as having won, I'd want Cathadh/Terror Turtle marked as a loss. Toon Ganondorf (t c) 09:48, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

I understand your statements, but unfortunately this creates a couple of grey areas. On the one hand, Razer vs Tornado in Extreme 2 was technically a rule contravention too (Razer was holding onto Tornado for far longer than it should have been, the team said so themselves) but, well, on the wiki we've written it closer to how Ultor vs Big Brother is. On the other hand, I feel the whole "rule breakage" for the Tag Team has gotten a little out of hand, given that all three other tag team battles in the World Series had robots charging out without a tag and nobody (not the teams, not the judges, not the wiki members) batted an eyelid - that in itself implies that we might be looking into this a bit too much. It's something I feel we're going to need to look into more in the future. I would propose perhaps, instead of "win", we put "Points gained by default/forfeit" next to Terror Turtle and Cathadh's names, but I already get the feeling that that would be way too cumbersome. I don't want to completely jump the gun as yet, and I'm willing to accept the change when/if it comes, but ATM I'd like to try and have a "placeholder", if you will, that's consistent across the wiki. CrashBash (talk) 10:03, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

To add in my own two cents on the issue, it does seem like the idea Wolf put would work, since while the battle itself was won by Concussion and Thor, the actual points were given to Terror Turtle and Cathadh out of sportsmanship. Thus a Note could be added under the fight for the results which says something along the lines of: "After the battle Team UK agreed to award Team ROTW the 3 points" CaliforniaKingsnake (talk) 12:15, January 11, 2018 (UTC)